Amtrak cuts down all the trees

[MrEd]

It happened almost overnight, according to Fran Rappo, a resident of Boulevard Gardens in Woodside. First the trees were there, blocking the noise of the Amtrak trains, then they were gone.

Rappo was concerned and contacted her management company to see if they knew why trees were suddenly felled along 31st Avenue and 57th Street, and the company was equally clueless.

“In this one instance we did not communicate,” said Cliff Cole, a spokesman for Amtrak. Cole said the trees were taken down as part of a maintenance project that spans the entire Northeast Corridor — from Washington DC to Boston. “We are using stimulus money to clear trees and shrubs to prevent any debris or damage to our trains tracks,” he added.

All parties involved agree that safety measures should be taken to prevent accidents, but many feel the removal was excessive.

Rappo does not take the loss of trees lightly. “We had pheasants, we had deer. There were a lot a lot of birds. It was a home for a lot of wildlife,” Rappo said. “I don’t want my tax money going to create jobs by destroying trees.”

...

At a meeting closed to the press, Amtrak followed residents and government officials on a tour of the areas impacted by tree removal. According to Councilman Peter Vallone Jr. who joined the group, “many of the trees cut down were well beyond 25 feet of this track.” Vallone has asked to see guidelines for Amtrak’s tree removal policies and said he is still waiting for a response.

...

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=...3&rfi='

 

[PRR 60]

The bottom line is that the trees are on Amtrak property, and Amtrak has the right to remove them if they wish. For years Amtrak neglected maintenance like vegetation management. A couple of power supply trippings later, they don't neglect tree issues anymore.

For those wondering, the area in question is in Queens, New York.

 

[TVRM610]

I agree... while i am not in favor of cutting down trees if its not necessary the bottom line is if Amtrak owns property with trees they have the right to cut down the trees!

 

[AlanB]

And living in Queens, I'm pretty sure that we don't have deer in Queens.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

That's simply not true. Various towns and cities enact laws that require authorizationg for the removal of trees.

 

[battalion51]

Somehow given the fact that this is Queens we're talking about, I doubt that there are really any regulations on the books regarding authorization to remove trees. IMHO, Amtrak made the right move. Cripple the NEC because of trees going down after a bad storm or remove them and plant new trees? Toughy. Worried about your land values, it's Queens! I doubt that being able to see the NEC is going to have a hugely detrimental impact on the value of your property. If it does it'll bounce back in a year or two. Wall Street probably hurt your property value more than Amtrak did.

 

[PRR 60]

That's simply not true. Various towns and cities enact laws that require authorizationg for the removal of trees.

As a entity of the federal government, Amtrak is not subject to local ordinances concerning property use. They can, and do, clear-cut vegetation without regard to any local restrictions concerning tree removal. In all fairness, Amtrak does try to cooperate with local municipalities, but they do so with the clear understanding that any accommodations are voluntary.

 

[jis]

Speaking of vegetation clearance, the NEC ROW in NJ is looking better than it has in the last 35 years that I have been around it. Vegetation clearance also incentivizes them to do clearance of the garbage that lies hidden behind/under the vegetation that is cleared.

 

[afigg]

From the photo in the newspaper article, it looks that they were quite aggressive in clearing away trees all the way to the fence line, downhill from the tracks. Maybe Amtrak could have left a narrow buffer strip of the existing trees, but without better information on just how tall the trees were and whether the furthest away trees were still presented a risk of fouling the track if they fell over in a big storm, can't say it was wrong to remove them. A quote in the article states these were 6 or 7 story tall trees, so they may well have presented a risk. But I understand why the locals are unhappy with the sudden change in view, if they had gotten used to the tall trees blocking the view of the tracks.

Having traveled the WAS-NYP section of the NEC on a regular basis in the past year, it badly needs a major clean-up along the ROW. Amtrak can't do much about the trash and appearance outside of their ROW, but cleaning up the entire ROW, fixing the fences, trimming back on the brush & trees, and doing some sprucing up of walls & buildings where possible will present a more positive environment for those riding the NEC looking out the windows. Good use of stimulus money.

 

[George Harris]

It happened almost overnight, according to Fran Rappo, a resident of Boulevard Gardens in Woodside. First the trees were there, blocking the noise of the Amtrak trains, then they were gone.

Talk to people that actually do noise measurements and mitigation works, that is sound barriers, etc, and they will tell you that vegation really does very little to reduce noise. It is more that the source of the noise is now more visible than anything else.

 

[Alice]

Any reason people can't plant trees and shrubs on their side of the fence? Any reason they didn't plant things before to hide what looks to be a chain link fence?

 

[tp49]

Any reason people can't plant trees and shrubs on their side of the fence? Any reason they didn't plant things before to hide what looks to be a chain link fence?

In the area in question 57 Street runs directly next to the ROW. There are no buildings that directly abut the tracks the chain link fence starts at the street. The buildings on the west side of 57 Street are multiple unit apartment buildings.

 

[MrEd]

After tearing down trees along tracks in Woodside this spring, Amtrak announced last Thursday, a $460,000 plan to plant new trees and shrubs and install fencing in the area.

Amtrak has hired a landscape horticulturist to assist in the selection and planting of approximately 600 new trees and shrubs, which the railroad will guarantee and maintain for one year.According to the company, the trees selected will be shorter than the ones removed to prevent damage to the tracks.

In addition to planting trees, Amtrak will reportedly install 1,250 feet of standard fencing and 100 feet of ornamental fencing to prevent access to the tracks. The agency reported it would also remove debris along the tracks. According to Amtrak, some of this work is already underway and the entire project is expected to be completed in October.

 

[the_traveler]

And living in Queens, I'm pretty sure that we don't have deer in Queens.

Are you sure?

I've heard some husbands call their wife "Dear" (along with some other names

)!

 

[caravanman]

Hi,

Interesting that the trees and shrubs are being replanted, and then "maintained" for a year.. What then, chop them down again... if there is any "stimulus" cash left? The only thing stimulated by this fiasco is my sense of the absurd!

Ed.

 

[Alice]

Hi,

Interesting that the trees and shrubs are being replanted, and then "maintained" for a year.. What then, chop them down again... if there is any "stimulus" cash left? The only thing stimulated by this fiasco is my sense of the absurd!

Ed.

Here in California, CalTrans often plants freeway landscaping that needs a year of attention such as regular watering but then will survive fine on its own, even through hot and dry summers.

 

[me_little_me]

And here I thought vegetation clearing occurred when Amtrak offered special pricing in the diner for those that don't eat meat!

 

[afigg]

Hi,

Interesting that the trees and shrubs are being replanted, and then "maintained" for a year.. What then, chop them down again... if there is any "stimulus" cash left? The only thing stimulated by this fiasco is my sense of the absurd!

The maintenance for 1 year is probably a contract with the local landscape company to monitor and water the tress and shrubs for 1 year so the trees can grow root systems to allow them (or most of them) to survive on their own. Quite a lot of people buy trees, plant them, and then the trees die because they don't water them enough.

I suspect that Amtrak had no intention of spending $460k for the right of way improvements on the section of the NEC running through Woodside in Queens. They got very aggressive in taking out tall trees that could fall on the tracks, but probably originally planned for only some modest replanting with shrubs along the fence line. Then Amtrak got an earful from the local community and political leaders. The Amtrak press release blandly puts this as: "“The input received from the community and from Congressmen Crowley and Councilman Vallone, Jr., allowed us to come to this mutually beneficial agreement,” said Frank Vacca, Chief Engineer, Amtrak. “Our efforts in Woodside underscore Amtrak’s commitment to be a good neighbor...". On the other hand, the bulk of the money is likely going to installing 1250 feet of standard fencing and 100 feet of ornamental fencing to prevent access to the tracks which was presumably in the plans before the local Congressman called. (side note: what is "ornamental" fencing in this context? Solid wall fencing? Fancy trim? :unsure: )

As for the $1.3 billion in stimulus funding that Amtrak got, I don't think Amtrak has even spent most of it yet. The ARRA summary spreadsheet on the Amtrak website lists a total actuals (money spent so far) of $395 million as of June, 2010. Takes time to put out bid packages, award contracts, then start the work and order equipment & parts. The last time I took the NEC from WAS to NYP a month ago, the ROW clean-up & tree cutting work was visible at a number of locations, but much of the route showed no signs of work. I would guess that the NEC and Keystone East Corridor ROW work will go on into next summer. Can't plant new trees and shrubs in winter.

 

[Jersey Jeff]

I live along the NEC in NJ. Amtrak clear-cut all of the vegetation and trees and installed new fencing earlier this year.

This is what happens when there are trees alongside your ROW.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Interesting that the trees and shrubs are being replanted, and then "maintained" for a year.. What then, chop them down again... if there is any "stimulus" cash left? The only thing stimulated by this fiasco is my sense of the absurd!

Welcome to America. It may be extremely wasteful to recreate the barrier after the fact instead of simply being more careful in the beginning, but that's just how we roll. Never mind that even moving the original trees would probably have cost less than this pork fest. Amtrak says they want to be a good neighbor. Personally I'd rather have a humble and efficient neighbor than a careless neighbor who clumsily blows through our tax dollars trying to make amends.

 

[AlanB]

Never mind that even moving the original trees would probably have cost less than this pork fest. Amtrak says they want to be a good neighbor.

Moving a tree that's spent the last 30 years putting out roots is neither easy nor cheap. And it's quite likely that moving it would kill it.

Besides the real problem here isn't cutting down the trees; its people who think that they're entitled to something. This is no different than people who buy a house next to a freeway and then insist that the taxpayers put up a wall to help deaden the sound. Or people who buy a house at the end of an airport runway and then insist that the pilots perform outrageous noise abatement procedures. Don't but a house next to train tracks if you don't want to see and hear them. Don't buy a house next to an airport if you don't want to hear the planes. Don't buy a house next to a freeway if you don't want to hear & see the cars.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Besides the real problem here isn't cutting down the trees; its people who think that they're entitled to something.

Yeah, we feel we're entitled to a smart and efficient government instead of an ignorant and wasteful one.

If cutting and then replacing all those trees is the most efficient way to be a good neighbor then so be it. If it's not then maybe they should just have left it as-is and only cut down those specific threes that were likely to cause actual problems instead of cutting everything down and then having to replace everything at an even greater cost. I realize that this concept may be hard for you to understand, but it's equally hard for me to understand your desire for everyone to keep quiet and never speak up. This country was founded on speaking up, not bending over. I pay my taxes and I expect my government to ensure my tax dollars are spent ethically and efficiently. Presumably the trees where already there when many of these folks decided to live there. Now the trees are gone courtesy of Amtrak. So the residents asked for (and apparently will receive) compensation in the form of a new barrier. So far, so good. The only problem is that it will cost a lot of money and won't really be the same as it was before. In fact it might all be dead in a few years depending on how well the weather cooperates. With that in mind it seems like Amtrak got a little too sloppy and now we're all paying for it with wasted tax dollars.

 

[AlanB]

Besides the real problem here isn't cutting down the trees; its people who think that they're entitled to something.

Yeah, we feel we're entitled to a smart and efficient government instead of an ignorant and wasteful one.

If cutting and then replacing all those trees is the most efficient way to be a good neighbor then so be it. If it's not then maybe they should just have left it as-is and only cut down those specific threes that were likely to cause actual problems instead of cutting everything down and then having to replace everything at an even greater cost. I realize that this concept may be hard for you to understand, but it's equally hard for me to understand your desire for everyone to keep quiet and never speak up. This country was founded on speaking up, not bending over. I pay my taxes and I expect my government to ensure my tax dollars are spent ethically and efficiently. Presumably the trees where already there when many of these folks decided to live there. Now the trees are gone courtesy of Amtrak. So the residents asked for (and apparently will receive) compensation in the form of a new barrier. So far, so good. The only problem is that it will cost a lot of money and won't really be the same as it was before. In fact it might all be dead in a few years depending on how well the weather cooperates. With that in mind it seems like Amtrak got a little too sloppy and now we're all paying for it with wasted tax dollars.

First, you're making the mistake of confusing Amtrak with Government. Amtrak is a private corporation; it's not the Government. It doesn't make governmental policies.

Yes, it has some major control by Government, but it is not "the Government."

Second, if this had been my backyard and I cut down a bunch of trees, trees that just happened to shade my neighbor's house more than mine or perhaps shelter it from my view; they would have no recourse against me. If this had been CSX, those home owners in Woodside would have been out of luck. This is only an issue because a few well to do people cried to their Congressman to make it an issue. So if you want someone to blame, blame Government, not Amtrak!

Third, the age of those trees is irrelevant.

Fourth, Amtrak has done this same thing up and down the corridor. Yes, there has been some public outcries, but IIRC this is the first time that Amtrak has agreed to replant something. Perhaps PRR60 or JIS remember something similar in the Philly area, although again I don't. So this comes back to a Congress critter, not Amtrak.

Fifth, as I already noted, moving the trees would not be practical. And it's highly unlikely that selective pruning would have been the answer either. If this had to be done, then this is without a doubt the cheapest way to go.

Finally, I have no desire for people to keep quiet about bad things for Amtrak. I've often been a vocal critic of Amtrak right here on this forum, as I pointed out to you a while back. Heck, I’ve even bumped heads with some on this forum about things; like I still believe that this Sunset/Eagle plan is a bad one.

I've no doubt that Amtrak was probably less than thrilled when someone no less than the recently departed Senator Byrd took my SDS analysis to Amtrak and demanded to know what their response was to my analysis. I don't know if the person who submitted my analysis to Senator Byrd ever heard back from his office regarding the Amtrak response, although since I never heard more I guess that he didn't either. And while I have no delusions of grandeur, coincidentally about 6 months later certain restrictive policies imposed by SDS were changed. It’s also equally likely that cooler & smarter heads at Amtrak, like VP Emmett Fremuax, effected those changes.

What I am bothered by is constant criticism of Amtrak without regard to facts or common sense. You've cried about wasted money so many times, and then turn right around and issued a criticism that would do exactly that, waste money for no reason. I realize that you’re still somewhat new to the world of railroading and don’t always understand why things work the way they do. But sometimes you really should just take a deep breath and ask more questions to ascertain a full working knowledge of why things are the way they are, before jumping off the deep end with unfounded criticisms.

 

[PRR 60]

In my prior life as a power transmission engineer (pre-retirement), I had to deal with similar situations. We have to keep trees from the power lines. For power companies, that is now mandated by federal regulation for high voltage lines (over 100kV). Power companies can and will be fined for high voltage transmission lines tripped by trees, and those fines are often in the millions. As a result, we now clear cut rights-of-way in areas that, in the past, might have gotten selective trimming. Our property rights, both easement and fee ownership, gives us the right to do that. But, when people who have spent years living next to a growth of trees wake up one day and find the trees are gone, it is an issue. We have the right to clear trees, and in Pennsylvania, that right supersedes any local law or regulation. But, that does not always end the story.

When dealing with the public and with public officials, sometimes you have to make efforts beyond what you are legally obligated to do. You don't do that just to be nice. You do it to maybe develop good will with people that you might need for help sometime in the future. If we felt that our tree clearing presented a real issue for people, we would clear the undesirable growth to ensure line integrity and regulatory compliance, and then plant low-growing species as a replacement to help our neighbors. If necessary, we would even offer to plant trees on the neighbor's property. It may not be a perfect solution, and it costs some money (but not that much in the grand scheme), but it pays dividends with your relations with customers and the municipal officials. Maybe someday, you will need some help, and when you have not screwed over the locals, you might have a chance to get help.

Sometimes, the right thing is not what the law says you have to do. It is what, in the big picture, is right thing to do.

As a clarification, Amtrak is not a private corporation as far as applicability of tax, law and regulation is concerned. For all practical purposes, Amtrak is recognized legally as an entity of the federal government. Amtrak is not governed by state or local laws and ordinances. State regulators, who (by FRA assignment) regulate some aspects of freight railroad operation, do not have regulatory oversight with Amtrak. Amtrak does not pay local real estate tax. Amtrak tickets are not subject to state or local taxation. Amtrak has the right of federal eminent domain (which trumps state condemnation rights). Amtrak motor vehicles even have federal license plates. Legally, Amtrak is not simply a corporation that gets federal funding and whose board is appointed by the President. In many ways, it is as much a part of the federal government as any traditional federal agency.

 

[Rosalie Mikos]

I have some tree's leaning twords my house and the city of New Haven,Ct. said they are on Amtrak property.I hope someone can help me.

My email address is [email protected] My phone # is XXX-XXX-XXXX